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Amy Scherer joins us for her fourth appearance on the pod to discuss her work covering the US Olympic Gymnastics trials, and the accessibility challenges she’s faced both at the events themselves and while traveling for them.
Check out Amy’s coverage at: https://www.intlgymnast.com/
Full transcript available at: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-july24/
Stephanie Flynt:
Do I just start?
Jack Rosen:
Yeah.
Stephanie Flynt:
Yeah. Well, we’ve got to be up. Hold on, well. Aghhhhhhh. I almost fell over Nala.
*Intro Music Plays*
Jack Rosen:
All right. Well, our podcast team has been decimated by meetings and migraines and everything else. So it’s just me and Raquel here to kick us off today. Guess what, Michelle? I’m doing the intro this time. So I guess I am a host. Raquel, do you want to tell the folks who we have on today?
Raquel Rosa:
Thanks, Jack. Today we are going to be joined by Amy Scherer, one of NDRN’s dynamite attorneys. She focuses on supporting the CAP program, or the client assistance program. She’s going to be talking to us today about a recent trip she took to Minneapolis where she was fortunate enough to see the gymnastics Olympic trials. Take it away, Amy.
Amy Scherer:
Wow. Raquel, thanks for such a kind introduction and I’m really glad to be on here today to talk a little bit about my experience. As Raquel said, my day job is as a staff attorney at NDRN, focusing on CAP, or client assistance program, VR related employment issues.
And I just happen to have a little side job that is also quite fun and I feel lucky to be able to do it. Maybe something that not everybody gets to do every day, but I essentially work as a freelance writer for International Gymnast Media. It used to be International Gymnastics Magazine, but as many things have happened over the last couple of years through the pandemic and everything, it’s now essentially a website, but it is the main media that covers international gymnastics, and it’s been around since 1956. So it’s really great to be able to be a part of that organization.
And the gentleman that runs the website and was a publisher of the magazine, I actually had a chance to meet him when I was 10 years old and just started getting involved in the sport and really fell in love with the 1984 Olympics when Mary Lou Retton won for the United States and also the men’s team for the US won the gold medal there. So that was sort of my introduction to the sport, and I was able to meet Paul Ziert, the publisher, and that’s where our relationship began, which led to my ability to work there many years later. I never thought as a child that literally 40 years later I’d be working for that organization, but it all worked out that way.
And the job, it’s interesting because I don’t think it’s that common even in 2024 for members of the press to be wheelchair users or to have visible physical disabilities. So my primary job with International Gymnast is to cover the NCAA season, which is separate than the Olympic season. These are individuals obviously who are in college, have scholarships, and there’s an entire NCAA season just like there would be for football or basketball. And I typically write a column during the season each week and then get a chance to go to attend the NCAA national championship at the end of the year. So that’s a live event, and involves going to the competition and writing about it while it’s happening, so similar to live chat, and then also going to press conferences after that.
So when I first started doing this, which was probably back in 2016 when I started to do the formal coverage of NCAA, they didn’t even have a place for a person in wheelchair to sit in the press section. There were actually five steps up there to even get to the platform where the media was sitting. And so here I just sat in another section and was not able to be with everyone else who was reporting on the competition. But actually, and I have to give credit to my friend Jessica Obern, who was there, and she was even more incensed than I was about what had happened. And she wrote a scathing letter to the head of the media for NCAA gymnastics and just said it was inappropriate and that it needed to be set up differently in order for me to be able to participate.
And lo and behold, they did respond to that very well. The next year there was actually a section on the press application that said, “Do you need wheelchair seating? Check this box.” And they really worked with me from that point on to try to make sure that I had a good place to sit and that I could see well and reach the table and reach the laptop and everything that was involved in reporting on that competition.
So it went well for a number of years. I have to say last year there was a change in the leadership so I wasn’t working with the same person. And even though there were many, many emails exchanged in the months prior to this year’s competition in terms of what I needed in order to be able to see and to be able to reach the table and everything, I got there and the table was about 15 feet tall and I was not able to see over the row of people in front of me.
So obviously that was a major issue, and it became a pretty significant thing because we found out about it just a couple hours before the competition. So we were trying to figure out what to do, and I was pretty frustrated because it’s not like this was a surprise. There were lots of conversations about it. The guy who was just in charge did not seemingly have the power to make the changes that needed to be made, and they were extremely apologetic, but obviously that didn’t really impact me to do my job and to do what I needed to do.
So after some chaos and people running around, we were able to find a place for me where I could see the competition and do what I needed to do in terms of my job responsibilities. I do have to say that once I said that I was a staff attorney at the National Disability Rights Network and that I had knowledge about the ADA, that definitely got things moving a bit more. So tip to anyone listening, if you can drop that into a situation like this pretty quickly, that does tend to wake people up. But that’s the situation in terms of doing the job with the press.
I’ve just also been extremely happy, though, with the organization that I work with, International Gymnast Media. They never thought it was a big deal that I use a wheelchair, had never done gymnastics in my life, couldn’t tell you how to do a back handspring from a technical standpoint at all. But they just appreciated I guess my passion for the sport and my desire to learn more. And I was excited to be able to find a way to use the knowledge that I had in a productive way and to be able to put it to use. Rather than just sitting at home and watching videos on TV, what could I actually do that might contribute to the sport? And they just totally embraced that.
And again, this is starting back in the early nineties, so not something that was necessarily typical. Never really had any specific discussions with them about accommodations or anything specifically related to my disability. We just made it work. And I think it was a good example, too, of for a while there, most of the interaction I had was through email or through the phone, but then when we started to be able to meet at different competitions, spend more time together, have meals together, I think they got a better view of what my disability was and that there were more things to be considered beyond just the fact that I use a wheelchair.
My motor coordination is also somewhat limited, and so that affects typing, which was part of the job that I was doing. But again, as I got to know them better, that just all kind of happened naturally and it was never a big deal to figure out how to make it work. So I just think that’s a great example because sometimes people think when you request accommodations it has to be this really formal, adversarial thing, and sometimes that is needed, but other times, especially when it’s just more of a side job like this, it just happened more naturally as I got to know them and we just figured out what was going to work best for me. So I think that’s probably the end of the job part of the discussion.
Did anybody have, so the second part would be, again, the most recent trip, as Raquel mentioned, to the Olympic trials for gymnastics in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And I am not able to travel independently, so I was lucky enough to bring along Raquel, who was travel assistant extraordinaire. And we had never traveled together so I think it was a learning experience in a lot of ways for both of us, but it also just showed that things don’t always go as smoothly as you hope they’re going to.
One thing is I use a power chair most of the time in my day-to-day life and then [inaudible 00:10:20], but I have never taken a power chair on an airplane for a trip because there’s just so many variables there. And if one thing gets broken, then you get to the other end to start your trip when you land and you don’t have a working mobility device. So it does definitely make it easier or less likely for a chair to be broken if you have a manual chair, especially if you take all the pieces off of the chair, which is what I would recommend. So I’m assuming most people listening to this probably know this already, but you would want to take off the back cushions, the seat cushions, the footrest, basically anything that is detachable from the chair, I recommend that you take off and hopefully are able to put that into the overhead compartment for the plane.
That doesn’t guarantee that nothing’s going to get broken, because I did have a trip last year where all that was done and they broke the brakes on the chair, which might seem like a minor issue, but it really wasn’t minor in any way, shape, or form because since I couldn’t put the brakes on to keep the chair from moving, I couldn’t do a transfer independently. So it really did make the chair useless until they were able to fix the brakes, which took a couple of months in order for that to happen. So it really can be a huge issue when they damage the chair.
In this case, though, we did not have chair damage, so I was very happy that we made it to Minneapolis in one piece, but there were some major issues in terms of getting on the plane. Typically, if you need assistance as a result of a disability to get on the plane, you could indicate that on the plane reservation and say that you need help with transferring in order to get onto the seat.
And in most cases, there’s an aisle chair, which is a more narrow chair that is the width of the airplane aisle. So that allows a person who’s not able to walk to get to the seat of the airplane. And so that involves a couple of different transfers, though. You need to be able to get from your own personal wheelchair onto the aisle chair and then from the aisle chair onto the airplane seat. And all this was very well spelled out in the reservation, that I was going to need help to do that, and specifically that I would need lift assistance from the aisle chair, well, from my chair to the aisle chair and from the aisle chair to the seat.
But when Raquel and I got there, instead of having two people, which would be the standard procedure if you’re going to help do a lift assist onto a seat, there was only one person. And so they were basically asking me if I could help or basically independently do the transfers without lift assistance and I basically was like, “No, that’s really not going to be possible.” And Raquel stepped in and said, “I’ll be glad to help since there’s not [inaudible 00:13:29] here.” And so she assisted with that and helped me to safely and comfortably get onto the aisle chair and into the airplane.
But I still look back at that and I’m not sure what would’ve happened if Raquel had not been there. I may still be sitting on the aisle seat or the aisle chair. They clearly did not have a plan B, even though I had indicated that that was the type of assistance that was going to be needed. Raquel, did you want to add anything about that, or anything I missed?
Raquel Rosa:
No, I think you said everything exactly correctly. I think if I could just give advice out there, it’s when we’re supporting people physically, that even if we know them, especially if we don’t know them, but if we know them, no matter what, we should be asking people, “May I do this? Can you do that? Can we do this?”
So when Amy and I were together, and I think the airplane transfer was a really good illustration of that, there are a number of buckles and harnesses and everything attached to that aisle chair. So it’s, “Amy, may I put this around your legs? May I put this around your chest?” Or in taking it off, “May I unbuckle this? Can you put your arms around my neck and I will hold you underneath your knees so that I can support you in the transfer?”
I think that communication is critical not only for safety but also just for permission and consent. I don’t think anybody likes to be touched without knowing or without being okay with it. And so that’s something that I am very firmly an advocate of. And so I think Amy and I had a really good exchange when we were together, and I think that’s a really good example of where that communication was loud and clear.
Amy Scherer:
I think that’s such an excellent point. I’m so glad that you said that. And to that end, too, it happened on both ends of travel. So both when we were going DC to Minneapolis and then Minneapolis back to DC, there were issues with the transfers on the plane. Same issue in both, with not having the correct setup to provide the assistance that I requested and Raquel having to step in there.
And as she said, it did get quite uncomfortable on the second leg of the trip with the gentleman that was trying to attach the seat belts so that I would not fall out of the aisle chair, which is kind of an easy thing to do if you don’t have a lot of stable balance abilities, because the chair is so narrow there aren’t armrests. And so in a lot of ways the only thing that in my case was probably keeping me from falling over or out of the chair were the seat belts.
But to Raquel’s point, the gentleman was not very clear about what he was doing or where the seat belts were going to go, and I was just trying to make sure that I didn’t fall out of the chair. So it was kind of an uncomfortable exchange and not at all what Raquel was suggesting that happened. And I would say that’s the case even in any situation, not just the airlines, but even Raquel and I knew each other, we were friends, but we had never done, as I said before, a travel experience like this. So it was really important for me to hopefully communicate to her what I needed or what was going to be difficult or what was going to work or not work. And anybody who’s in that situation, even if it’s a person that you’re hiring as a personal care attendant that you really don’t know or that you haven’t developed a relationship with, I think communication about what is needed is such an important part of the whole thing.
So with that, the other major issue we had, it was a great hotel overall, and they had really good customer service. We had a really good experience with the hotel staff, the restaurant staff, even the bartender at the bar that we went to several times got to know us and knew we were coming and everything like that. But there was one major hotel issue, and that was with the hotel bathroom. And it was a roll in shower, which is what I typically request because the transfers to the tub onto the shower chair are much more difficult. I was really glad that the roll in shower was available, because again, sometimes that can happen too. You request a roll in shower and you get there and all they have is a tub. And that’s not necessarily, depending upon what your physical capabilities are, an easy transition to make.
But in this case, didn’t have to worry about that. We had the roll in shower, and it was really a great setup in a lot of ways, a nice big space, a nice threshold on the shower so that the water didn’t go everywhere, which can happen with a roll in shower setup. However, there were grab bars on the walls of the shower, which is fantastic, and there was a shower bench attached to the wall, which is also usually really good because that way it’s solid and stable and it’s not going to move and you know that it’s going to be there. You don’t have to sit there and request and hope that they bring a shower chair that you can sit on.
But where the shower bench was was not at all close to any of the grab bars that were on the wall. And initially Raquel and I looked at that and we were like, how could that be? How is that possible? They’re assuming that you’re going to be able to stand up from your chair and then sit on the bench without having to hold onto anything because there wasn’t anything to hold onto. So we were pretty perplexed, and we knew that that wasn’t going to be easy for me, to just go from the chair to the bench without any additional support, and we didn’t want to end up on the floor of the shower, so we had to really be creative and figure out a way to do it without having to do the transfer.
And we got really creative. I’ve never really tried to do it this way, but we decided that it was probably better if I just stayed in my chair rather than trying to transfer. Now, obviously a manual wheelchair is not designed to be prepared for a full shower. They actually have shower wheelchairs that are designed for that, but it was a situation we were in, so we had to make it work. We ended up taking everything off of the chair. Again, didn’t have a back support, didn’t have a cushion that I was sitting on. We just put a towel down, but we were trying to make sure that nothing that would be damaged by getting wet was on the chair. So basically took everything off that we possibly could and did it that way. Just literally rolled my chair into the shower because there was no way to get onto the bench.
And it worked. It definitely worked. It worked better than I think we thought it would, and everything did dry pretty quickly, so there was no damage done to the chair. But honestly, we should never really have been in that situation of having to make that decision because all they needed to do was have a grab bar on the wall nearest the bench and everything would’ve worked much better.
But that’s been my experience with hotel rooms in general. Even when you say accessible hotel room, request roll in shower, the setups are all very different. They may be specifically meeting the letter of the law, but clearly not looking at would this work from a functional standpoint if you’re not able to stand up or transfer independently. And so I would just throw that out there for those that might not know that. And I think that pretty much encapsulates the experience that I wanted to share, unless there are other questions or comments from Raquel.
Raquel Rosa:
I think the only thing I would add is the height of the bed and the fact that there’s only one bed. So it’s a good thing Amy and I are friends because we had a slumber party.
Amy Scherer:
Very true. And I think unfortunately that does seem, and didn’t mean to, definitely jump back in there, Raquel, if you want, but I think that has been pretty indicative of my experience. As soon as you request a wheelchair accessible hotel room, nine times out of 10, it is a one bed situation. And I’ve always found that really interesting because logically it would seem that maybe if you had a wheelchair accessible room, maybe you would have somebody with you that would be providing assistance and you are not necessarily romantically involved with that person.
So it is kind of that one bed does seem to be the standard and the beds do tend to be very high. I’m actually under five feet tall, so that creates a major issue for me. And it was a trend that didn’t really exist I’d say until about maybe 10 years ago, and then all of a sudden the hotel beds got much higher just across the board. So from a disability perspective, that may help some people because then they don’t have to try to get up from a lower position. But higher beds can also be a problem.
Raquel Rosa:
I think also with the height of the bed, so we were able to make it work, but just thinking about other folks who might need a portable Hoyer or something, some other physical transferring device, the width between the bed and the wall is typically not conducive to any of that. So I know we don’t have our hotel friends and architects listening to this, although they should be. I would really encourage folks to engage people with disabilities in assessing their proposed rooms when they are sketching them out and that they actually navigate the space when there’s a mock-up of the space being built.
It’s just, like I said, Amy and I were able to make it work. I’ve done lots of travel with lots of people with varying disabilities, and so I’m used to this, but I would also say that even with being used to it, you never know what you’re going to encounter on the other side of the door. So I think it’s just really important that we are vocal about what the needs are and how those things could be remedied and that we are also very careful with our bodies and the bodies of the people who we are supporting because nobody needs to get hurt.
Amy Scherer:
I couldn’t have said that any better, but I think that might be it as far as our story.
Jack Rosen:
And we’d like to congratulate Amy on being the most frequent guest on National Disability Radio. This is appearance number four. So thank you, Amy, for joining us throughout the years.
Amy Scherer:
Thank you. I’m really glad to join, and if there’s ever anything I can do to help in the future, I’ll be glad to come back.
Stephanie Flynt:
Amy, one more appearance and we can induct you into the Five Timers Club, like SNL.
Amy Scherer:
Wow, that would be amazing.
Stephanie Flynt:
Jack, you know how we’ve been having office temperature issues?
Jack Rosen:
Yeah.
Stephanie Flynt:
So when it gets cold in the winter time, you might need to be careful about leaving your windows open because you might end up freezing your computer. Windows open. Freezing. That was probably terrible. I’m like, maybe we should do an encore joke. That was pretty bad. That was the worst joke ever. I can’t believe Michelle was not here to … Like, get it? Windows, freezing, computer.
Jack Rosen:
Thank you, Stephanie. Until next time, you can email us at [email protected]. You can follow us on LinkedIn, Twitter, Threads, Facebook, and Instagram,
Raquel Rosa:
And keep your computers warm, guys. Keep those windows closed.
*Outro Music Plays*
