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On this episode celebrating National Disability Employment Month we have a double header! First up we interview the team managing the Financial Access, Inclusion & Resources (FAIR) Program at Disability Rights Louisiana. Members of the team include Carolyn LeBrane Tilton, MPH, MDiv, who serves as Program Manager, and Case Managers Alexander Andréson and Lauren Sanchez. They together to support returning citizens efforts to become financially stable. Then for our spotlight story we’re joined by Dr. Josie Badger, of J. Badger Consulting and Peacock Consulting, to discuss the barriers to employment for people with disabilities and how the government could do more to remove those barriers.
Learn more about the FAIR Program at https://disabilityrightsla.org/resources/financial-access-inclusion-resources-program-one-page-flyer/
Connect with Dr. Badger at https://jbadgerconsulting.org/
Watch our documentary Accessing Democracy (also available in ASL) at https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwF-vB8hlrRAzpd8D1_6rq8L5BgXzWqO3&si=zMyBeNJ1XvqhSY8o
Full transcript of this episode available at https://www.ndrn.org/resource/ndr-oct24/
TRANSCRIPT
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Just stuff some nacho fries down my face.
Michelle Bishop:
So you just shaved what down your face?
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Nacho fries. I was hungry.
Michelle Bishop:
Nacho fries.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
The Taco Bell things except I don’t like the cheese sauce. I just like the fries and the weird seasoning on it.
Michelle Bishop:
That sounds like seasoned fries more than nacho fries.
Jack Rosen:
Yeah, I don’t know. If you say nacho fries I feel like it would have a meat to it.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
No, it’s like Taco Bell cheese sauce, like ballpark Taco Bell cheese sauce, and then the french fries that have the interesting seasoning on them.
Michelle Bishop:
I’m saying Taco Bell come for us, but that’s not nacho fries. That’s just cheese fries.
Jack Rosen:
Michelle, don’t screw this up. We’re trying to get a sponsorship
Michelle Bishop:
From Taco Bell?
Jack Rosen:
Yes.
Michelle Bishop:
They have a specific interest in disability rights.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Yes, although-
Jack Rosen:
Well, I can think of one person with a disability who is planning to go to the Taco Bell Cantina later.
Michelle Bishop:
It’s you, isn’t it?
Jack Rosen:
It is me. I was going to get a quesadilla. And if they give us a sponsorship, I’ll say is a fantastic margarita slushy thing.
Michelle Bishop:
That does sound good actually. I take it back Taco Bell. Call those fries whatever you want. Back to National Disability Radio. I am Michelle Bishop, one of your fabulous hosts,
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
And I’m Stephanie Flynt McEben in one of your other fabulous… Oh my gosh, that was bad grammar, hosts in this.
Michelle Bishop:
I’m the least prepared podcast ever. We can’t say our own names now without messing up. And also, I guess, okay, look, so it’s just the two of us right now. So I’m thinking temporarily, temporarily Stephanie, temporarily. What if we called our producer Jack a temporary co-host?
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
A host do sir. A pro host.
Michelle Bishop:
Is Jackie going to talk? Jack, you’re supposed to introduce yourself at that point.
Jack Rosen:
I was kind of letting Stephanie riff it out there. That’s one of my skills as a producer and host is knowing when to “yes and.”
Michelle Bishop:
Jack can’t be a host because it’s like we passed it to him and he didn’t say anything.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
I know. That makes me so sad. You were going to be the best pro host.
Michelle Bishop:
It was so short-lived.
Jack Rosen:
All right. Hi everyone. It pro host Jack Rosen here. So Michelle, we have a fantastic episode today. We’re doing a bit of a throwback in that we also did a spotlight story. So do you want to tell the people about who we have on?
Michelle Bishop:
First of all, look at us sticking to our original format that we don’t stick to having a spotlight story. We’re crushing it this month because this month is, wait, this is the best because this month is the National Disability Employment Awareness Month. And we are technically right now three employed people with disabilities. So brushing it.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Yes.
Michelle Bishop:
Yes. Employment for people with Disabilities. This month we have some special guests here for you to talk all about disability employment awareness month and the work that they are doing to get and keep people with disabilities employed.
Jack Rosen:
Thanks Michelle. And on today’s episode we have Lauren Sanchez, Alex Andréson and Carolyn LeBrane Tilton from Disability Rights Louisiana. They run the FAIR program at the Louisiana P&A, which stands for Financial Access Inclusion and Resources Project. They help returning citizens navigate employment and resource barriers to achieving long-term financial stability. But that’s not all. We also have on Josie Badger for our spotlight story. Josie is a consultant who focuses on employment for people with disabilities. So let’s kick things off with our interview.
Michelle Bishop:
Yes, pro host. So the FAIR program is a program of Disability Rights Louisiana, which provides free financial coaching and case management services to formerly incarcerated individuals with disabilities helping them to achieve their employment, financial, and reentry goals. Let’s get into it. If everyone from Louisiana who joined us today, if you don’t mind introducing yourselves for our listeners. And then Carolyn, can you tell us how the FAIR program started?
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
Yes, thank you. First of all, I just want to say we are very excited about being given this opportunity to be on this show and to share with everyone what the FAIR program is all about. My name is Carolyn LeBrane Tilton. I am the program manager and I am here with two of the best bestest people in the world who love working for formerly incarcerated individuals and helping them to become all that they can be. I’m with Alexander Andréson, who is a case manager and financial coach and I’m with Lauren Sanchez, who is also a case manager and financial coach.
Alexander Andréson:
So I’m Alexander Andréson like Ms. Carolyn just said. I’ve been in the nonprofit and advocacy realm for the last eight years and my last year and a half has been with Disability Rights Louisiana’s FAIR program. I’m the only member of my immediate family who’s not been directly involved with the criminal justice system. And in my early childhood, I watched my grandfather reenter with disabilities after decades behind bars, witnessing his struggle with reentry firsthand fuels my passion for our target population. I wish he would’ve had access to a program like this.
Lauren Sanchez:
And I am Lauren Sanchez, also a case manager. I’ve been in and out of the criminal justice system for a little over a decade and dealt with my own disabilities for longer than that. So my journey led me here and this position spoke to me in just wanting to give back and let people know that life can get better.
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
Now the question that was asked is how did we get started, right?
Michelle Bishop:
Absolutely. Tell us all about it.
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
Well, Louisiana has long been known as the incarceration capital of the world, and of course that’s a title that really needs to change. For years we’ve been representing people with disabilities. When I say we, I mean Disability Rights Louisiana. We’ve been representing people who were being abused and neglected inside of our prisons. And so in 2017, our governor signed a package of bills into law that was aimed at significantly reducing the state’s prison population. Now this may sound like great news and it was, but people were coming out of prison and when I say we, I mean Disability Rights Louisiana couldn’t find any disability focused reentry program that we could refer our clients to once they were released.
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
We knew that clients with disabilities would need very holistic services to help them rebuild their lives. And so we decided to build our own. So in 2018 when we started building the FAIR program a foundation, the Kessler Foundation actually presented us with a funding opportunity and we saw that as a chance to create the program and bring it to our community. Their support was instrumental. And so that’s how we started. We started as a pilot program in 2018 and we’re now five years old.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Yeah no, thank you so much for that information. I know that you briefly touched a little bit on this, but could you speak a little bit more to why FAIR’s strategic focus has been specifically on employment?
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
Yes. And this is really a very unique approach, but when we looked at the data, and we did a lot of research on this, we saw that unemployment and poverty were some of the strongest predictors of incarceration and recidivism. And we also realized that those issues disproportionately impacted people with disabilities. So DRLA already had a lot of experience in helping people with disabilities address employment barriers and at the same time address their financial concerns as it related to balancing their disability benefits.
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
So it just seemed like a good place to start and to bring those two together. We also saw it as an opportunity to address the gaps in other employment programming. So what happens is that in our work we see repeatedly that there’s so many issues unrelated to the actual jobs that we’re making it hard for our clients. And I’m talking now issues like stable housing, transportation, healthcare, and of course financial matters. So we decided that what we would do is really we wanted to be a very holistic approach, and so we wanted our program to use case management strategies to support the job seekers, but also to bring in the whole financial literacy and financial coaching piece.
Jack Rosen:
So I’m wondering, beyond employment outcomes, why did you decide to also focus on financial stability?
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
Well, at the same time that we were looking at all of this, we saw that in our benefits counseling program, the WIPA program, we found that our clients were facing financial issues that went way beyond the disability benefits that they were receiving. And they were asking questions like, how can I get rid of some of this debt that I had? They were asking questions about savings. They were asking questions about setting up bank accounts.
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
And again, we could not find any financial coaching programs to refer them to that understood how the intricacies of these benefits go hand in hand with their disabilities. And so what we did was we went to a training program that the National Disability Institute offered, and that training made a strong case for how financial coaching could improve employment outcomes and ultimately the long-term financial pathway of our clients. So pulling all of that together, that’s what significantly influenced the development of the FAIR program.
Michelle Bishop:
Are we back to me?
Jack Rosen:
Yes.
Michelle Bishop:
Y’all, we’re getting through this faster than I thought we would. I was like, there’s no way we’re going to my question already. Okay. Sorry, sorry. Okay, I’m focused. Alex, so what does your day-to-day work look like in your role as a case manager and financial coach?
Alexander Andréson:
My day can vary greatly, but there are two typical scenarios that I deal with. When starting with a new client, I start by preparing a client file and conducting a thorough baseline assessment. Our baseline assessment covers demographics, contact details, housing, employment, education, legal history, health document access, transportation, financial literacy, income and debt and gold. This initial meeting is designed to be conversational to help with that building of trust. We also sign any necessary consent forms.
Alexander Andréson:
Once we understand the client’s situation and aspirations, we create an action plan together. This might involve connecting them to medical care, job training, or helping them start their SSA benefits application. More complex cases may require immediate research, advocacy or referrals like with housing or food crises. We maintain regular check-ins at least twice a month providing financial coaching to enhance their financial knowledge and capability. In general, my role as a fair case manager and financial coach is highly individualized and we adapt to each client’s unique needs. So I’m lucky that every day looks different.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Okay. So I have a question actually for Lauren. I know Alex touched a little bit on this, but what are some challenges that your clients have faced as they’ve tried to get employment and financial security? And how have you been able to help them address such challenges?
Lauren Sanchez:
So as Alex said, many of our clients face many different challenges, but specifically what I have seen recently in a lot of my clients has been coming to us while they’re in drug court. Yes, drug court has its benefits of course, but it can also be very difficult and a huge stressor and have barriers especially for clients with disabilities. Some examples of what the clients face is regular reporting court groups, and this can all be within a minute’s notice that they have to attend. A lot of our clients don’t have reliable transportation. Employment. They’re required to work 20 hours a week. This could be difficult in finding second chance employment. Employers willing to accommodate their schedule, clients not being able to do just any job with their disability or able to meet the hours. There’s also the drug court fees. A lot of our clients are just getting on their feet struggling to find employment and this can also be added debt.
Lauren Sanchez:
So what can we do about this? Some of the things that I’ve been able to do is meet with multiple drug court staff, establish a relationship and open a dialogue. It seems they’re very familiar with the re-entry process, but may not necessarily be familiar with re-entry with disabilities. I’ve been able to educate staff, advocate for the client. The client may not be able to work around a large amount of people. There may be over-stimulation, they may need frequent breaks, shorter shifts, they may need those accommodations in order to have success with a decreased income. We’ve been able to get payment plans for the fees.
Lauren Sanchez:
And then even things like medications. There’s been questions about if their medications are medically necessary and I’ve been able to explain what these medications are for with their disabilities and helping them have an understanding. So through our program, we’ve actually been able to assist with developing a foundation for independence and stability while helping the clients stay in compliance and maintaining their freedom. In the end, actually because of our involvement, drug court has asked us to come do a presentation and educate them further, and they’re now actually interested in referring clients and seeking our help for their success.
Jack Rosen:
And Lauren, I’m wondering what kind of challenges you’ve had connecting with your clients?
Lauren Sanchez:
The biggest thing in the beginning seems to be gaining their trust and respect. With their past history, this doesn’t always come easy. Through the re-entry process, they may face a lot of discrimination with disabilities and previous incarceration. So some of the things I’ve been able to do and found successful is first of all, consistency. I do what I say and I say what I do. I always show up, always answer. I was recently told that a client was having a problem with people sticking around and they were so grateful that I was here with that consistency.
Lauren Sanchez:
Using motivational interviewing, this can be like a guiding style of communication involving good listening and direction, and it’s actually based on respect to empower people. Offering a welcoming and comfortable environment. We don’t have your typical office atmosphere, which can be cold and intimidating to some people. We like to refer to our office as the cottage and it has a home-like environment, a lot more welcoming for them. Meeting people where they’re at. Successful looks different for different people, they’re in different phases. Having an individualized plan, no one-size-fits-all and no having judgment, and then sharing my own experience and being able to relate with them seems to go a long way.
Jack Rosen:
I think you touched on so I’d like to follow up a little. The trust piece of it, how do you kind of approach people so that a lot of people, I assume among your clients have had bad experiences with people in positions of authority. So how do you make yourself a little more… How do you take that initial step when let’s say I was a client connecting with you?
Lauren Sanchez:
I would think so initially, when a client comes in, if they come into the office, I’m going to welcome them. I’m going to not sit behind a desk, I’m going to sit in a chair next to them. I’m going to offer them something to drink and just start with a conversation of getting to know them, not necessarily sit there with a pad and paper asking continuous questions and I want to feel like an equal to them because I’ve been in their shoes before and being able to share that helps. Sometimes it’s not even about having them come in but going to them, meeting them in a neutral environment, a place that they feel safe and comfortable.
Michelle Bishop:
Thank you Lauren. I love all of that. It’s just meeting people where they’re at is so important. The whole reason our network exists is to serve the people in our community and we have to be able to meet them where they’re at and go from there. I love that. Alex, can you share a success story that speaks to the impact of the FAIR program?
Alexander Andréson:
Absolutely. So one of my most memorable clients is a lively elderly man who’s reentering society after 40 years at Louisiana State Penitentiary also known as Angola. He faced challenges with medical care, housing, and transportation. We started by applying for low-income senior housing, and after a few months he was approved for an apartment with a great view of New Orleans, the city he grew up in. Next, we worked with his doctor to ensure that he received his electric wheelchair by educating them on Medicaid and Medicare durable medical equipment requirements.
Alexander Andréson:
After a year of struggling with repeated denials, within a month he had his chair thanks to our advocacy. Through financial coaching, we planned his use of SSA back pay. He bought furniture for his new apartment and we discussed the considerations for purchasing a vehicle. After buying his car, he faced a minor accident but had insurance and a covered rental, allowing him to continue working in his caregiving role with a family member. This experience demonstrates the comprehensive support that we offer to help clients to build stable and independent lives.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Sorry, my dog nearly stepped on my laptop because that’s where life’s happening. Anyway, Lauren, Alex just shared a success story. I was wondering if you could also share a client success story as well with us.
Lauren Sanchez:
I would love to. So I would actually like to share about a client who came to me. She had been in and out of jail, living with some complex disabilities, and still navigating the justice system of drug court, which I previously spoke of. She was unemployed, not necessarily meeting drug court requirements of work and not being able to pay her fees, which put her freedom and her independence at risk. So she was placed in a work development program. Once she successfully completed this, she was still struggling with finding job placement. We were able to reach out to a contact and help her find a job willing to accommodate her disability and her drug court schedule. She was only able to start one to two days per week and still facing the stress and pressure of being in non-compliance. And really she was ready to give up and quit.
Lauren Sanchez:
But through coaching and encouragement, she was willing to stick with it. So I spoke with her drug court counselor and explained how she was making progress, but her disability was playing a factor in achieving her goal and her process may look longer for her. As a result, drug court was willing to decrease her hours required to work from 20 to 10 and set her up with a payment plan.
Lauren Sanchez:
Without this added stress and with our ongoing support, she started to perform better at work and she’s now working five days a week full-time. And with her increased income, she’s also starting to catch up on those fees I mentioned. In addition to that, by working with one of our other partners, I was able to find out what was needed to reinstate her driver’s license. And now with the increased money, she’s able to do that. We are also looking at setting up a savings plan to meet new goals such as a car for reliable transportation. Just these small changes to accommodate has helped her maintain her freedom and with the start of overcoming one barrier has had a domino effect and opening more opportunities for her.
Jack Rosen:
So I want to hop in here. You mentioned, it brings something to mind. Is debt a common issue for a lot of your clients? I imagine people have been incarcerated, they’ve had bills add up, whether that’s trying to keep their housing or just, I know simply being incarcerated can be an expensive experience.
Lauren Sanchez:
Absolutely. It’s not uncommon. Unfortunately, prior to incarceration, people don’t always make the best choices or have the best judgment and maybe doing whatever they need to do just to get by and that might put them in some poor financial situations causing a load of debt that they’ve acquired. In addition to coming out and having to pay those fines and fees to the court system as well as a lot of times when you’re incarcerated, some of that debt continues to accrue while you’re still in there. So it could be very overwhelming for people who just need to get a job just to get the basics, food, shelter, clothing but then also having that debt in the back of their mind, I need to resolve this in order to acquire some of these long-term larger goals of housing, cars, things like that. So yes, debt is quite common, but with our financial coaching, it’s not impossible to overcome.
Jack Rosen:
So it sounds like that’s some of the goals of the program to have people find employment to help them get out of those debts or at least make those debts manageable. How would you all say that you measure success?
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
That’s a great question Jack. You’ve heard a lot of the kinds of things that we do, and of course you’ve heard how our clients experience so many barriers, so many barriers when they get out and come back into the community. So when we look at the word success, success for us isn’t just somebody finding a job or securing housing. Those things are very important of course. But what we do, we wear two hats really. So you heard me say that we’re case managers and we’re financial coaches. So as case managers, that’s what we’re doing. We’re doing information and referral. We’re making sure that if you’re a senior, you get on the list for senior housing. So we’re doing those kinds of things. But we are really focused on stability, long-term progress and of course independence. And so when we look at success, we do look at several key indicators.
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
So number one, we do track the employment outcomes. How many of our clients are able to find jobs and not just any job but jobs that are willing to work with them along with their disabilities. We look at the housing piece, we want them to live in a place that is stable. Many of our clients come to us, they’re homeless. And of course, there’s an affordable housing crisis all over the country and it’s dire here in New Orleans. Even the shelter, the low-barrier shelters, sometimes very difficult to get our clients a bed in that shelter because they only have so many beds and there’s so many people in need. So when we’re looking at measuring success, we use the change machine Salesforce platform. And so in that platform, we’re able to not only measure things like their financial health and what this means is what Lauren was talking about, how much debt do you have?
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
How can we help you reduce that debt? And then we follow that all the way through to see really sometimes month to month how that debt is being reduced. We also through the change machine platform, and when we are putting on our coaching hat, that’s when we’re talking to our clients about spending plans. We don’t really use the word budget, but we begin to have conversations with them very early on how important it is to know where your dollars are going. And that’s why Lauren talked a lot about trust. We have to gain the client’s trust because we’re going to be asking them some very intimate questions. And those are the kinds of questions that if they were just going to an agency talking to a case manager who’s focused on housing, mental health, things like that, they’re not going to go into the depth that we do.
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
And so the primary objective for FAIR is to enhance the employment and financial outcomes about clients. And let me just boast just a little bit. 49% of our clients achieved employment. Our clients reduced debt by a collected total of $79,993. Our clients increased their income by a collected total of $74,253 per month.
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
So what we’re doing when we’re coaching our clients, and like I said, we do it simultaneously. When we’re coaching them, we’re helping them to see how they can contribute to the economy and we empower them to not only establish financial security but desire it. And that’s a long way from being homeless to now having hopes and dreams of buying a car, having your own apartment, and those kinds of things are the kinds of conversations, meetings, if you will, that we have with our clients and they begin to open up. And when they share those hopes and dreams, there’s a dollar sign. There’s money attached to hopes and dreams, especially as it relates to cars and an apartment. And so we work very closely with them, we work together, we’re a team. And so our success is based on our support and empowerment of the whole client.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Yeah no, thank you so, so much Carolyn. And you totally deserve to humble brag here, totally. This is some absolutely fabulous work and just hearing you guys talk about the experiences that you’ve had with your clients. But on the topic of measuring success, I would love if you could speak a little bit to what has led to the success of the FAIR program? Okay.
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
Well, let’s see. FAIR success is really attributed to how we support our clients. And I know what I’m saying sounds simplistic. And we actually had a discussion yesterday as we were preparing for this, and a lot of times the things that we do for our clients, there’s so much in our DNA until we don’t realize that it’s just something that is out of the ordinary. And we had to laugh about that yesterday because we do provide a wide array of services and we tailor those services to each individual’s unique circumstances. So when we are able to glean the kind of information that we get from the clients as we meet with them regularly, we begin to see that once we equip them with skills, resources, and opportunities that they need to succeed, they want to become more and more a part of a community.
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
And what that does is of course makes our communities safer, more inclusive and economically stronger. So I would say again, their success lies with how we support our clients and how involved we get with our clients. It’s so much so till we don’t really have something called a graduation from the, because our clients don’t want to leave us. Even though they have gone through all of the action plans that we help them to develop, if something comes up in their lives, they call us first because they know that we’re going to guide them and give them the kind of wisdom that they’re going to need to overcome whatever particular barrier they face at that time.
Lauren Sanchez:
I just wanted to add to that, just like Carolyn said, our clients, they are the hero in their own story. This is their journey. They choose their goals, we just help them reach them and that is their success. And with their success is our success.
Michelle Bishop:
I love it. I’m here for it y’all. I agree with Stephanie. I think you should brag away. You all can’t see me because this is a podcast, so you can’t tell but I am snapping right now when I tell you to brag it out. You all are doing so much work and seeing successes, not surprised, nobody wants to graduate and they don’t want to leave you all. I would imagine with all of this on your plates, it must take a lot of community partnerships to make it work. And I’m wondering what kind of partnerships you’ve developed over time that are making this achievable?
Alexander Andréson:
Absolutely. So really, most of our clients do come to us through referrals from community partnerships. As this program has been around for five years, we work with clients within the community, not within a vacuum. So we collaborate with individuals from other specialized support programs, and we’re building those strong relationships as we go. For every issue our clients face, we connect with experts in the relevant field allowing us to provide the holistic support while also filling those gaps in our expertise. These relationships allow us to focus on what we do best, our financial coaching and case management.
Alexander Andréson:
We have too many community partners to really highlight all of them here in the time that we have but I did want to share some examples of our most effective partnerships. As Lauren mentioned earlier in her success story, we have a community partner that assists with legal challenges including driver’s license reinstatement and fee reductions, which is a huge part of our work. We also collaborate with case managers from the public defender’s office, probation and parole, and other court programs to better understand our client’s legal obligations and restrictions and work with them the best we can. Additionally, we’re involved with our local reentry task force, which enables us to advocate for the broader community of formerly incarcerated people with disabilities by identifying and addressing barriers within reentry services in the city and other organizations. And it also just allows us to connect and network with groups that are doing similar work to us, making sure we’re not doing things twice.
Michelle Bishop:
I think it’s all you, Jack no?
Jack Rosen:
It is. I was just pulling it up.
Michelle Bishop:
Oh sorry. My bad, my bad. Do your thing. See Jack, this is why you’re a producer.
Jack Rosen:
Yeah, and what would you call someone who’s doing an interview?
Michelle Bishop:
This is a longstanding argument y’all between whether or not Jack is the producer or one of the co-hosts. It’s a long running-
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Yeah, it’s a big running joke for us and we all know who the real host of the podcast is its Nala, my guide dog.
Michelle Bishop:
When he was-
Alexander Andréson:
Has to be included in the joke.
Michelle Bishop:
That’s funny. When he wasn’t ready with the question right away, I was like, now is my moment to slide in there and make a joke about Jack not being a host.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Yes.
Michelle Bishop:
But also, if Nala keeps unmuting your computer, what I’m hearing that Nala is ready to step up and start co-hosting the podcast with us.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Yeah, I’m sorry she made my screen reader talk over a little bit. I was like, “Are you serious?” She was unmuting my computer with her nose and then she went, she’s got an Aflac duck that she’s obsessed with. And so then she went and started literally slamming that against my computer.
Michelle Bishop:
She is trying to unmute. She is ready to be heard.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
She is, she is. She wants her bark to be heard.
Michelle Bishop:
Sorry, sorry. We can’t control ourselves.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Sorry guys.
Michelle Bishop:
Do your thing, Jack. Sorry.
Alex Anderson:
Y’all are good.
Jack Rosen:
So I was wondering what’s the future hold for the FAIR program?
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
Well, Jack FAIR is constantly evolving. We’ve been talking about expanding our reach one day, going outside of the New Orleans perhaps to another city in the state. We continue to build upon the partnerships that Alex talked about, and really we are Disability Rights Louisiana, so we continue advocating for the kind of policy changes that’s going to make re-entry smoother for our clients. I’m hopeful about our future because I’ve seen firsthand the resilience and the determination that our clients have and we can’t help but channel that into helping them to just have incredible success. So that’s what drives us to continue to just push for more. What else can we do for, what else do you need? Those kinds of questions we’re always asking our clients. There’s a lot of potential here at jet, there’s a lot of room for growth and I believe we’re just getting started.
Michelle Bishop:
That was incredible. All of you, Carolyn and Alex and Lauren, thank you so much for joining us today. We are super inspired. When you said you were just getting started, you can’t see me, but I’m ready to go. I was ready to jump out of my chair, right? Stephanie and I are moving to Louisiana. Let’s do this. We’re going to help out. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing with us today. This is such a cool program and we’re so glad we could just help get the word out and maybe other NAs in other states can get something going as well.
Lauren Sanchez:
Thank you so much for having us. This was such a pleasure.
Carolyn LeBrane Tilton:
And it was a lot of fun. Thank you. We enjoyed it.
Alexander Andréson:
And come visit us anytime you want.
Michelle Bishop:
Yes, we’ll be there. Maybe suspiciously close to Mardi Gras, but we’ll be there.
Jack Rosen:
And now for our spotlight story. Hi Josie, thanks so much for joining us today. Do you want to tell the folks listening a little bit about yourself?
Josie Badger:
Yeah, sure. Thank you so much Jack for being here and letting me be a part of this. So my name is Josie Badger and I live in Northwestern Pennsylvania with my husband and four dogs and two kiddos. And I’m a business owner, and so disability employment month is one hot month for my work and my passion, so I’m definitely excited to be here.
Michelle Bishop:
Josie, that’s great. Thank you. Can you just tell us a little bit, get us warmed up here. What motivated you to focus on employment issues?
Josie Badger:
Looking back at my life, looking at the barriers that I’ve faced, so much of that has been from discrimination bias and just an overall lack of supports and services. However, I worked from the whole way through school really to be able to have a good job, to be able to live the life that I wanted. And when I was graduating with my doctorate, I realized that I could not afford to be successful, and let me explain that a little bit further. I am a person with a power wheelchair. I have a ventilator that I use 24/7. I have nurses, I have personal care attendants and under medical assistance, which is Pennsylvania’s Medicaid, if you earn over a thousand to… Let me say that again. If you earn more than $1,200 a month, you’re at risk of losing those benefits and it wasn’t fair. I had my doctorate, I wanted to work, I was prepared to work, and that got under my skin.
Josie Badger:
I’m sure for a lot of the listeners when this would ring true, that when someone tells you you can’t or no, you fight even harder to do it. And so as soon as I graduated, I started J. Badger Consulting and that way I was able to work and keep myself poor enough at that point to be able to still have my waiver services such as nurses. But after that, I had the amazing privilege of becoming a campaign manager for the hashtag I want to work campaign, which is based out of the United Way of Southwestern Pennsylvania.
Josie Badger:
And through that work, I’ve been able to be the manager of this campaign that has gotten three bills unanimously passed that ultimately support employment for folks with disabilities with the most recent being medical assistance for workers with disabilities, workers with job success. And that is a state bill, but it’s really a Medicaid buy-in program that individuals with disabilities who have been working and earning can earn over a $100,000 a year in Pennsylvania and still keep their waiver and Medicaid services. So now I’m able to pursue those opportunities. And with that being said, I feel called to make sure that others can pursue their goals and dreams and be able to use their talents and gifts in our community.
Jack Rosen:
Absolutely. And I think you touched on something so important that a lot of folks in our community are penalized for wanting to succeed, wanting to work that on the one hand, we’re constantly being told that it’s important to be able to provide for ourselves but when we try to, we risk losing services and Medicare that cost more than what a person could reasonably cover working full time. And I think that is one of the perennial barriers to employment for so many folks in our community. With that being said, I’m wondering what are the most frequent issues and concerns you hear about from folks who want to work?
Josie Badger:
Over and over it is the concern of losing benefits, whether that be just basic Medicaid Medicare, whether it be in-home nurses, and unfortunately a lot of individuals are not getting all the information about what is possible, how much they can earn and still have those benefits. A lot of states do have some sort of Medicaid buy-in program for workers with disabilities, but often that information is not shared or even working with the governmental entities, individuals are often wrongly kicked off of benefits and are told they’re no longer eligible but that information is often incorrect.
Michelle Bishop:
Josie, it really struck me when you were talking about the idea of keeping yourself poor enough, that exact phrase of keeping yourself poor enough. I agree with Jack. I know a lot of people who have been forced into that position. Unfortunately, it’s a very real calculation that you’re forced to make. And I think it’s a rude awakening for a lot of us who are raised to believe that achievement and making something out of yourself are core American values. And then people with disabilities grow up and we say, wait a minute, not you. And so I’m wondering what advice you have for folks who are transition age who are going to be coming up against some of these barriers.
Josie Badger:
For those of you who either are transition age, are coming up to be transition age soon, or parents, it is a scary, scary time. And I spent a lot of my time initially really looking at how can I work, what makes sense? So I spent more time working to be able to work than the work itself. And I would highly recommend that you contact a benefits counselor. Vocational rehab will help support that. There’s various funders that will support that. A lot of waivers will pay for it. Explore your options, figure out do you need to jump straight into a full-time career? Can you test something out? And really ideally do it while you’re in high school because there are a lot of work trial benefits that are available for those of you in high school. And so try it out, see what works for you, and then talk to professionals. Don’t try to look the information up on your own totally. It’s confusing. It’s hard to interpret. Yes, there’s good resources but really contact benefits counselor.
Jack Rosen:
Just thinking about transition age folks a bit, parents can play such a role for young people as they enter the job market. And I know we’ve all gotten advice from our loved ones, sometimes good career advice, sometimes bad career advice. Sometimes they think that you can just get a job these days by showing up with a resume and they’ll get you an interview and not ask to leave the premises. But that said, either way, parents play such a role. So I’m wondering if you have any advice for parents and loved ones on how to support their family members as they enter the workforce.
Josie Badger:
Even before an individual is ready to get an official job chores, volunteering, all of that is so critical to start figuring out who you are as a person, what are you good at, what do you like? It starts to develop some responsibility and accountability. And so from a young age, I really believe that all of that work, even if it’s as little as feeding the dogs, which is one of the things that our kids do, can be really important. Talking about financial information management, setting budgets with them. But then as you’re looking at future careers, letting the youth figure stuff out themselves, letting them tour building, setting up job shadowing. And there are entities that do set those up, especially during the month of October. But giving those opportunities for them to discover what they’re good at and what they’re not good at. It is okay to fail, but it’s better to fail earlier in life when you’re not relying on the income of a certain job to have a roof over your head. So do that early and just try everything out as early as possible.
Michelle Bishop:
And try everything early and fail early is great advice. I really love that. So we are, as I’m sure you are too, celebrating the National Disability Employment Awareness Month. Could you bring it all home for us and tell us why this month is important to you?
Josie Badger:
Right or wrong, individual’s sense of importance value is often set on a person’s ability to have a job. And I’m not saying that is right. However, employment gives us not only money, but power. And as Americans, we often place the value of a human on what they can contribute. Employment allows us to be a part of society and a part of the decision makers in our country. And we as people with disabilities who have fought so hard to get through school to maybe live on our own. We have to be at the table to quote Hamilton, “In the room where it happens.” We have to be that and employment is one of those keys to get us in that room. So as we are in October and as we move forward, employment needs to be a focus of not only folks with disabilities, but the businesses that are trying to fill vacancies.
Josie Badger:
The government that’s always trying to find ways to save money. We know that employment is the right thing for our individuals. We know that we as people with disabilities are folks that can and should be contributing. And so employment is just important for everyone on both sides, whether you’re government, whether you’re folks with disabilities, but also if you’re a business, it’s not just the right thing to do because somebody said it was good to do it, it’s the business thing to do. We are good workers, we stay jobs longer than other folks, we work longer hours. And so it makes sense to hire us.
Jack Rosen:
Absolutely. I think you touched on something very important there. This progress can’t happen unless we have a seat at the table. So I guess one thing we should touch on though is, it’s not just us in a vacuum trying to get employment and the opportunities we need, someone needs to hire us, and the expectations of others plays such a role. I was wondering if you can speak on that a little.
Josie Badger:
One of the first that people come up to anyone and say is, “Hi. What’s your name? What do you do?” However, as an individual with the obvious significant disability, that’s not what people might say or ask when they first meet me. It’s often, “Oh, hi, what’s your name? Who are you with?” Assuming that I always need a caregiver. And so I want to ensure that we are changing the cultural narrative of what it means to have a disability in America. And so much of our legislation and government benefits define disability as the inability to work or to make a certain income and that’s not true at all. That has basically pigeonholed us into having only benefits if we are unemployed, not realizing we can do both. We can have a disability and be employed. However, we need those supports to be able to get out of bed and go to work in the first place.
Josie Badger:
And so it shouldn’t be based on how much we earn or our actual ability to hold a job, it should be based on what do we need to live a good life to be able to pursue our jobs, to have a family, and what will it take for us to truly live in the community? And that’s really important for us to change that narrative, both for maybe parents who are not sure how to encourage their child as they grew up into adulthood or government stating that benefits are only for people who are poor. And it is our job as individuals with disabilities to pursue job opportunities, to change that perspective on disability so that as soon as somebody walks up to us, they don’t assume that just because we have a disability, we’re not employed. We need to change that narrative.
Jack Rosen:
Before we let you go, I just wanted to ask you, you recently founded PEACOCK, a non-profit. Do you want to tell the folks a little bit about that?
Josie Badger:
Sure. Sure, I’d love to. The PEACOCK Consulting really comes from the initial work started by J. Badger Consulting, but our hopes with PEACOCK are twofold. One is to help support the leadership and empowerment skills of youth with disabilities and the second part is really to empower the rest of our community, regardless of age in becoming more involved in politics and various parts of change-maker and system change. And often folks are scared of that word like politics or working with legislators, but we’re talking about making sure that individuals with disabilities have that seat at the table and are able to contribute to bills legislation, talking through various barriers that people with disabilities face.
Josie Badger:
And we have found that legislators often do not know the barriers that their own constituents with disabilities face. They don’t understand how certain legislation can detrimentally affect our community. And so a lot of the work is about just getting our voice heard and making sure folks with disabilities know that their voice matters. And so that is what PEACOCK stands for, is making sure that whether you’re a young adult all the way through the rest of your life, your voice matters and letting individuals know where they can share their perspectives to encourage system change.
Jack Rosen:
All right, Josie, thank you so much for coming on today. Is there anywhere people can check out your work?
Josie Badger:
Sure. If you visit jbadgerconsulting.org, you can find about both organizations and you can contact me. I’d love to hear from you.
Michelle Bishop:
Josie. Right on. Thank you so much. This was awesome. I thought we were going to come on this month and just talk about employment a little bit, and instead you were like, “Employment is power.” And I’m so hyped for disability rights right now. So thank you. That was amazing. And we really appreciate your time.
Josie Badger:
Thank you.
Jack Rosen:
All right. There we go. I think that’s the question. I was just trying to get it while I had it. All right. Yeah, I think that’s definitely worth adding.
Michelle Bishop:
Well, thank you so much to all of our guests this month. That was incredible. The work that you do and your stories are amazing. Thank you so much. We love National Disability Employment Awareness Month, and we’ve been really excited for this episode. So thank you to our guests. And I guess it’s getting, I’m stalling, I’m stalling, but it’s getting to the point where I have to say, Stephanie, do you have a joke this month?
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
I always have a joke. Okay. But my question is, you need to pick… Wait, is a pumpkin a fruit or a vegetable? I think it’s a vegetable. All right, because it’s the type of squash. Okay. Pick corn or pumpkin.
Michelle Bishop:
Pumpkin.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Okay.
Michelle Bishop:
Pumpkin. I want pumpkin.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Okay. All right. So what do you do if a pumpkin gets hurt? I swear this isn’t too violent.
Jack Rosen:
I’m strong.
Michelle Bishop:
I’m thinking about squash.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Oh, that’s even better. What do you do if a pumpkin gets squashed? No. What do you do if a pumpkin-
Jack Rosen:
Wait, I think I got it.
Michelle Bishop:
Okay. Go Jack, go.
Jack Rosen:
You give it a pumpkin pack.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Yep, that’s right. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
Michelle Bishop:
Not bad.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, Quinn told me that one was a good one.
Michelle Bishop:
You know I’m pretty basic for fall, so I’m down with a pumpkin joke.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Yes. All the pumpkin things.
Michelle Bishop:
It’s a good fall.
Jack Rosen:
I’m proud of myself and I finally got one.
Michelle Bishop:
Oh wait, is that the first time you got the answer?
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Yes.
Jack Rosen:
There was one other maybe but I think, yeah, I think that was the first.
Michelle Bishop:
Pro host, pro host.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Pro host, pro host.
Michelle Bishop:
Go Jack. See, look at us being nice to you this episode and everything.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
I’m always nice to him.
Michelle Bishop:
Autumn really is a magical time.
Jack Rosen:
Are we going to just brush over the part where Stephanie’s like “No, that’s a you thing.”
Michelle Bishop:
Yeah. Yeah, we were skipping that. Hey, Jack, why don’t you tell people where they can find us on social media?
Jack Rosen:
Sure, Michelle. You can follow us at NDRN Advocates on Twitter. You can find us on LinkedIn, you can find us on Facebook, you can find us on Instagram. We’re posting there more these days. You can follow us on Threads. It’s the exact same content as the other platforms but for people who use Threads, we even have a TikTok that we don’t and will never use, but you can follow us there. And as always, you can write to us at [email protected] and to give one click plug, our documentary, Accessing Democracy is now out. You can find a link to it in the show notes.
Stephanie Flynt McEben:
Woohoo. Go watch the documentary. But until next time, bye.
