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Michelle, Raquel, Stephanie, and Jack speak with people who knew Judy Heumann about her love of life, her sense of humor, and what it was like when you disagreed with the mother of the disability rights movement. Guests in order of appearance: David Hutt, Diego Mariscal, Kelila Weiner and Kylie Miller, and Maria Town.
Listen to Judy’s podcast The Heumann Perspective: https://judithheumann.com/heumann-perspective/
Stream Crip Camp: https://www.netflix.com/title/81001496
Read more reflections of the people Judy influenced: https://19thnews.org/2023/03/remembering-judy-heumann-disability-rights-policy-movement/
View full transcript of this episode on: https://www.ndrn.org/resource/panda-pod-tribute-to-judy-heumann/
Stephanie Flynt:
Hi folks, and welcome back to another edition of the PandA Pod. Now, this episode is going to be a little bit different this month. So for this episode, we are going to be paying tribute to Judy Heumann, or to who most of us know her as the Mother of the Disability Rights Movement. I’m super excited about today’s episode because you guys are going to get to hear from a variety of people who worked closely with Judy in various points, people who were very close with Judy, and people who were able to work with her in multiple capacities. So you’ll be hearing from David Hutt, our legal director here at NDRN, Diego Mariscal, CEO of 2Gether-International. Next we have Kelila Weiner, Judy’s personal executive assistant, and Kylie Miller, Judy’s digital content creator for the Human Perspective, among other digital content. And last but not least, Maria Town, the CEO of the American Association of People with Disabilities. So without further ado, let’s not waste any more time. Let’s get right into these stories and interviews.
Michelle Bishop:
David, can you talk a little bit about what it was like to work with Judy?
David Hutt:
So after I left New York and came to Washington to work with NDRN, which would’ve been in about 2006, 2007, I started working with Judy who was, at the time, getting very involved in the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. So at the time, the United States had said, “We’re really not going to have anything to do with this international treaty on disability rights.” And Judy was very active at the time to try to get both the United States to first sign the treaty, and then eventually for the Senate to ratify the treaty. And she had this both toughness and incredible warmth that she could combine. So the advocate I saw many times when she was working to organize the disability community, when she was making a point to whether it’s a government official or to a member of Congress, so she was definitely tough and had her points well out, but she also had this warmth, and it wasn’t combative in the fact that she was, “I’m right, you’re wrong.” It was a way that she persuaded people that she was right that was so effective.
And it was very rare that I was not in a meeting with Judy that she wasn’t trying to make some sort of connection with somebody. So she would hear a person with a disability having this idea, and she would try to connect them with someone else within the disability community. Or to the level of if she heard of someone who was having a difficulty, she would often call me up or some other folks at NDRN to say, “Hey, can you help me connect this person with the P&A in this state because they’re having an issue.” This happened a couple of occasions. Often it would happen with someone who maybe, when she was working on international issues, wanted to help that person get into the US or they were in the US and they were looking for services, and she would look to see if the P&A can help them. The more I worked with her, the more I realized just how she can make that one-on-one connection with people.
I used to joke in the first couple years that I worked with her just how intimidated I was, I was nervous and tongue-tied talking to her because of her great work and her great history, but then as time go on, she actually became a colleague and a friend, the more we worked together.
Stephanie Flynt:
I will say this, David, it is very hard for me to picture you being intimidated, so that is still something that I’m having trouble picturing. But all that to say, a lot of people have been sharing a lot of different stories about Judy and her character, and I know that you’ve been talking about a lot of the work that you were able to do with Judy. Do you have any favorite story moments? We all know how spunky she was, or at least those who knew her knew how spunky she was. And I mean, it only took you about five minutes to realize that she was very no nonsense, but like you were saying earlier, also had this way of talking to people that would make her listen rather than be condescending or what have you. But do you have any particular stories that really stand out to you about working with Judy?
David Hutt:
Yeah, Stephanie. So a couple of stories. So one, after I’d worked with her for a couple of years on various international issues and the disability rights treaty, we were in a meeting, I don’t know, maybe this is about five, six years ago, maybe a little longer than that, and I had some difficulties going with various things, and I had grown a beard and I was upset with a few things, and I was either going to reach out to her or she reached out to me, I can’t remember, but she looked at me and in such a nice way, she says, “You don’t look good.” And I don’t know if it was the beard she didn’t like, or if it was I looked drawn and tired, which is probably the case. And she said, “Hey, why don’t we get together? Let’s come over to talk.” And I was like, “Oh my God, Judy’s going to have me over to her apartment.” And she invited me over and we sat down and talked about some issues that I was having and some ideas she had.
Given Judy, she put me in contact with a couple of people and later that day emailed me and said, “Oh, you should talk to this person, or that person,” quickly followed up. Then I went over there a few other times, we had some mutual friends, we went out to dinner or to lunch with a few times. So it was just that ability to really help somebody. And I remember at the memorial service, a lot of people were laughing at the stories about how she always had her phone with her, and she was always saying, “Oh, I got to take this,” or, “I’ll be right back.” And every time I was with Judy, whether it was personally or through a more professional reason, she was always that way, “Oh, wait a minute, I got to take this. I’ll be right back,” or, “Let me just text this person.” So that’s one of my, I think, as a friend of hers, one of my favorite stories, is just that empathy to reach out and notice that I was struggling with a few things.
Raquel Rosa:
Diego, thank you so much for joining us today. If you could start by sharing with us how you first met Judy, we’d love to hear that.
Diego Mariscal:
Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me. I feel like it’s such an honor to get to talk to Judy at length. Like you said, we did have a very special and unique relationship. So Judy and I met about eight years ago, so I feel like it’s not that long ago, at the UN Conference of States Parties in New York. I knew who she was, and so when I saw her, I remember getting her card and immediately having to go to the bathroom to calm myself because I was so excited that I got to meet Judy Heumann. And from there, we’ve developed this very unique friendship, and I don’t know if you want me to go into the specifics of how that developed, but we ended up, for the past eight years, really quickly, we would talk almost every day. She was my emergency contact. I mean, really it was she was like my second mom. And so it was such a privilege and a blessing to be able to have that relationship develop so quickly and organically.
Raquel Rosa:
Thank you so much. So obviously you had this strong personal connection. I was hoping you could share with us a little bit about what she was like as a person.
Diego Mariscal:
So I can get a little bit into how we developed that relationship, and that I think would yield some light into how she was as a person. So we met and she was working at the State Department at the time, extremely busy, but she immediately said, “Yeah, let’s of course get together and talk about what you’re working on.” And being the extreme extrovert she was and how busy she was, it took a couple of months to schedule the call. But once we got on the call, she was interested in what we were doing. But the thing that really hooked her was when I told her that I’m originally from Mexico because her husband is from Mexico. And so when I told her that, she was like, “Oh my God, here, take down my cellphone and we have to get together for dinner.” And so I did.
And again, it was one of those moments where I couldn’t believe what was happening. And a few weeks later, I texted her about getting together and we went out for ice cream. And so I share this story to show that Judy was so much about getting to know people for who they really were, even though she was really a celebrity and often called the Mother of the Disability Rights Movement, she was so simple and humble. And even the last text I have from her, I had gone on a trip to Cuba and her last text to me was, “I’m in the hospital, Jorge is also in the hospital. How was Cuba?” So if that doesn’t tell you how much she cared about other people beyond herself, I mean, it was an incredible, incredible person that keeps inspiring me every day.
Raquel Rosa:
I’m sure you had some fun and lighthearted moments together. Do you have any specific memories that you would like to share?
Diego Mariscal:
One of the last, in fact, I think the last in-person meetings that we had was at her house singing karaoke. We were singing Abba songs. And there’s a video of me singing with her karaoke, and that was the day before I went to Cuba.
Raquel Rosa:
Could you tell us what song you were singing together? I just want everybody to know.
Diego Mariscal:
Yeah, yeah. We were singing, I will definitely share with you, we were singing The Winner Takes It All, which seems quite fitting for the situation that we’re all in right now.
Raquel Rosa:
So ladies, I was hoping you can tell us a little bit more about what Judy was like as a person. Kelila, let’s start with you.
Kelila Weiner:
I knew Judy in the last part of her life, quite literally. And my impression of her was that she had her way of doing things and her way of being all figured out. And one thing that became abundantly clear and was very clear in life, and just became even more clear through the process of grieving her with her community, is that she was very familiar and she asked lots of people lots of questions right away, and maintained that getting to know people and connecting with them was one of her favorite ways to find joy in life.
So I think that’s a really big part of who Judy was and what she was like. And I also think that something that shone through a lot was how eager she was to work. I started this by saying that I knew her in her last part of life, but that doesn’t mean that she had or had any interest in slowing down at all, which was very admirable. And of course created lots and lots of work for Kylie and I, so we were never bored. That was one thing that I really admired about her. And one thing that came through pretty clearly was her affinity for her work and for working in general.
Raquel Rosa:
Amen to that. Kylie, can you tell us about how Judy was as a person?
Kylie Miller:
Yeah, I echo everything Kelila said. Something I keep saying to people is Judy was not interested in knowing people on a surface level, she was only capable of wanting to know really everything about someone if she could. At the top of every business call, she wanted to go around and not only know everybody’s name, but know where they’re from and if they had kids. And she would do this on business calls, she would do it at the grocery store. Really, she just had this intrinsic desire to know people well. And I think that’s why so many people feel so close to her in her passing, even people who haven’t met her. And I guess otherwise, personally, I think Judy really loved joy and joyous things. She loved theater, she loved music playing, and these are things that I think because of the intensity of her work sometimes aren’t talked about enough, just how much she loved color. She was so joyous about the Mexican culture of her husband, Jorge, and she really was just a vibrant person all around.
Raquel Rosa:
So as you’re telling us what Judy was like as a person and what your experiences were like with her.
Kelila Weiner:
Something that was funny to me was when Judy would choose to have a celebratory drink, it was pretty far between, but one moment that sticks out to me is another one of our trips where Kylie and I got to accompany her to New York. She received an honorary doctorate and also was their commencement speaker. And afterwards, in the hotel bar, she was like, “I am ordering a White Russian.” And we were like, “Okay. Odd choice, but absolutely.” And then she drank the whole thing. She was like, “That was great, and I’m glad I did it.”
Kylie Miller:
Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good one. Another that comes to mind is I went to a show with Judy called Hi, Are You Single? It’s a play by Ryan Haddad, and he’s a disabled actor, playwright, all things theater. And we went to go see the show at the Wooly Mammoth. And afterwards, it had been set up for Ryan and Judy to meet, they had a lot of mutual friends, and he was thrilled, he personally invited her to come. And we met, and he said that the whole show, he was watching Judy, because it’s a kind of monologue show, it’s a one-person show, so there’s a lot of audience interaction. And he said he was watching her and he could not get a read on her take on the show. He’s like, “Oh my God, she hates it, she hates it, she hates it.” He thought that the whole time. And the show’s really raunchy, it’s about his experience as a disabled gay man and trying to find people to go on dates with and stuff.
And he was like, “I know it’s not some people’s comedy, it might not have been your thing.” And she’s like, “Look, I’m no prude. I loved it, it was great.” So it was just a funny story. And I think I even echoed that. I’m like, “Yeah, no, Judy’s 75, but she’s not a prude. She’s not afraid of this type of thing.” And I thought that was a really funny interaction between the two of them.
Jack Rosen:
Thank you for joining us today, Maria. Can you tell us what Judy was like as a person?
Maria Town:
Judy was an incredible friend and connector. She was really good at maintaining relationships, but she was, if I can say this, even better at connecting people to one another. And if she knew that you were interested in voting, she would say, “Oh, well, have you talked with anybody at REV UP?” And she might connect you to AAPD’s REV UP team. Or if she knew you were autistic, she might just connect you with other autistic advocates. So things like that. She asked a lot of questions, and those questions could sometimes be very direct and straightforward. And for people who were unaccustomed to that, it could be a little off-putting. But for Judy, asking the tough questions was actually one of her primary ways of expressing interest and care, and engaging in things that she thought were important. Judy really believed in the, or I should say she insisted upon leadership by disabled people. She was always one of the first people to say, “Who’s at the table? Are they disabled? We need disabled people to be there.”
And I think Judy also really believed in the power of cross-disability organizing. And that was something that she really started with Disabled in Action and with other groups, I think I’m going to get the acronym wrong, but the Coalition of Disabled Citizens, and then the work that she did with the 504 protests, and [inaudible 00:16:58] and beyond. And it’s one of the things that I think she really contributed a lot to the AAPD board in was her perspective on why cross-disability organizing was important, how it was vital that we, as a community, really understood one another’s experiences and worked to support each other. Judy was an extrovert, she loved the phone, she loved to get together over dinner, and she also worked incredibly hard. I can’t tell you how often we would work together at 10 o’clock, 11 o’clock, 12 o’clock at night on key issues. And she and I worked together in a few different ways.
When she was at the Department of State, I was at the Department of Labor, but because of her work at the Department of Education, we did work together sometimes on issues facing young people with disabilities as they transitioned from school to work. We worked together on something called the Marrakesh Treaty, which affects Braille documents that are transported across international borders. And then as we became friends, we work together on different presidential campaigns and then on all kinds of issues, when I came to AAPD and she began to build her media empire. And I think for people who want to learn more about what Judy was like as a person, they should watch her podcasts, which is available on a variety of platforms. And you can see the way that she engages with people, the questions that she asks. She was an incredible, incredible person.
Jack Rosen:
And finally, I was wondering if you had any positive or lighthearted stories about Judy you’d like to share?
Maria Town:
I do. One of my favorite Judy’s stories, so I have been married now for a little over a year, and my wife’s name is Cheryl, and Judy really loved Cheryl. And when I got engaged, we were really excited, but not everyone in our family was as excited as we were. And prior to getting engaged, a few months before getting engaged, Judy called me and said, “Are you engaged?” And it was so funny because when she called me, only a few days before, I’d actually decided to propose to my wife. And so it was this strange question and I was like, “Judy, no, I’m not engaged. Who have you been talking to? Why are you asking me this?” And she said, “I don’t know, I just felt like you should be engaged.” And so I told her that when I got engaged, I would call her. And she wouldn’t find out from somebody else, she wouldn’t find out on social media. When I got engaged, I would be the one to tell her, I would call her.
So fast-forward in February when I actually did propose to Cheryl, I called Judy and when she answered, I said, “Judy, you know how I said I would call you when I was engaged?” “Come on, [inaudible 00:19:58] show me the ring, tell me everything.” She was just so excited. And I really cherished that because it was just excitement that we really needed at that time, and she was so loving.
Jack Rosen:
Wow. She sounded like such an incredible person, I wish I had the chance to know her. Thank you, Maria. Anything else before we close out?
Maria Town:
So one of the things about Judy is that she pushed people and in a lot of different ways. And she, for example, was always pushing me to be bolder in my advocacy and to really claim my own power. And I wasn’t necessarily, again, ready for all of this at the time, but she still did it. And on a funnier, lighter note, Judy and I attended the wedding of another disability advocate, Ari Ne’eman. And Aria’s Jewish, and Judy asked me to do the hora with her. Now, I have cerebral palsy, my balance is terrible, doing the hora is something that will result in disaster, and potentially bodily harm to me and others. And I was like, “Judy, I don’t know about this. I don’t think it’s a good idea.” And she was like, “Come on, just dance. You can hold onto the back of my chair.” And so that’s what we did, and I walked away unscathed, and grateful to have done the hora with Judy Heumann.
Jack Rosen:
It was so incredible to see all the lives that Judy touched, and it seemed there really was a running theme that she took a real interest in so many of the people she met and was dedicated to leaving the disability rights movement in a better place.
Stephanie Flynt:
Oh my goodness, you’re telling me. Yeah, definitely, you can just tell from all of the stories that have been told today that she served as a friend and a mentor and a colleague. And she wasn’t afraid to tell you how it was and she never seemed to met a stranger. She wanted to help every single one of us in this community become better advocates in whatever way she possibly could. And that is so evident in the stories told today. And yeah, I think we can see why she is considered the Mother of the Disability Rights Movement, she more than earned that title.
Jack Rosen:
100%. And if you want to learn more about Judy’s legacy, there’s a couple of articles we’ll link to in the show notes. Also, you can check out Crip Camp on Netflix of course.
Stephanie Flynt:
Yes, 10/10 recommend, watch it.
Jack Rosen:
Thank you for joining us on today’s episode of the PandA Pod. As always, you can follow us on social media, @NDRNadvocates on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. You can also follow us on LinkedIn at the National Disability Rights Network. And finally, you can join us in Phoenix, Arizona, June 5th through the 8th for the 2023 National Disability Rights In-Person Conference. We’ll have a wide variety of sessions, ranging from legal issues to public policy. You can even join me for The A to Zs of Content Creation. You can find more information about the annual conference at our website, www.ndrn.org.
Stephanie Flynt:
Oh, and BTWs, all the cool kids are going to be at the public policy session. So yeah, go ahead and sign up now. Until next time, everybody.
Jack Rosen:
See you.
